Understand ANYONE Around You (Including Yourself!) Using One Simple Tool w/Nick Baumgart

May 11, 2022

Today’s episode is all about understanding yourself. Nick Baumgart, an Enneagram expert, explains how to use the information from the Enneagram in your everyday life. The Enneagram test is used as a way to understand your emotional habits . Unlike other popular personality tests, the Enneagram focuses less on what you do and more on who you are.

The test breaks down your motivations into three parts: fear , body, and mind. When you truly understand what motivates you, you’re able to see why you act the way you do and can start taking steps to fix any destructive behaviors. This knowledge also goes a long way when interacting with other people. This test is ideal for teams because instead of putting yourself in their shoes and still looking at problems from your perspective you can “understand them in their shoes.” Nick talks about how powerful of a tool this test is and how it could have changed his life if he had found it earlier, so do yourself a favor and let this test change your life today!

Ashley: This is Real Estate Rookie, episode 172.

Nick: And I mean better. And the people around me would’ve had a different life too. And I think, at getting the people who are in your life personally on board as much as they’re interested, the dividends that, that would pay, I can’t even begin to tell you. I fully believe that’s my area of passion for sure.

Ashley: My name is Ashley Kehr and I’m here with my co-host Tony Robinson. In this week’s Rookie Reply, we have a special guest for you guys.

Tony: Such a special guest that it almost felt more like a therapy session at one point than a regular Rookie Reply. But today we have Nick on the show and Nick is actually, an enneagram expert. And when you hear enneagram, it’s a personality type tool similar to the DISC profile or the Myers Briggs. But this one’s a little bit different and Nick will get into what some of those differences are and why he feels that this one is actually, a better tool to use in your day to day life.

Ashley: Yeah. Nick actually, sat down and spent an hour with each Tony and I and went through what our type structure should be so this was something that was very new to me. Did you ever do this type of testing Tony?

Tony: No. Tyler Madden had mentioned it to me that he had gone through this before and got a lot of value out of it but this was my first time doing it myself as well.

Ashley: I still can’t pronounce it correctly. So as you notice through the whole show I avoid saying the word the whole time.

Tony: Say the word now, say it that way. Let’s just get-

Ashley: Enneagram.

Tony: … woo. There it is. You’ve got it.

Ashley: Is that right?

Tony: That’s it.

Ashley: Okay.

Tony: Yeah. Enneagram.

Ashley: Let’s save that. We can insert it into different parts of the episode. Okay. So we are going to bring Nick on and learn what types Tony and I are. And also why this is important, what value it can bring to your life and others. Nick, welcome to the podcast. We are very happy to have you on Tony and I have both talked to you a little bit before this episode to get some background. I would love for you to share with everyone who you are and why you are here today.

Nick: First of all, thanks for having me on. I know this isn’t your normal thing but I think it’s just one of those universal human things that’ll make anybody more successful in the things they do and that includes what you guys are up to. I’ve listened to several of your podcasts, I don’t know the first thing about what you’re do. Well, I guess I now, know the first thing about what you’re doing but that’s about it. I am an enneagram guide, I have dedicated the last several years of my life to it and when I say dedicated, I mean maybe a little obsessively and it is a tool… The best way to put it is, it’s a roadmap, a scaffold to understand ourselves authentically, and others better and in a way that is not putting you into a box and containing who you are, I think a few other of these tools that are valuable tend to do. So that’s what I do with my life is, I help people find their way to get the filters and the masks off of the little silent voices that are always influencing us and that’s through the enneagram.

Ashley: So what exactly is that?

Nick: Yeah. Great question.

Ashley: Can you explain and break it?

Nick: No. You all know, don’t you? Of course. So enneagram comes through antiquity. It goes all the way back to monks and the Trappist monks way back 1200 years ago, using this thing as a way of understanding our emotional habits, our focuses, the things that motivate us and then that allows us to understand ourselves truly and then understand others truly and then growth from that. And so way back when all these years ago, hundreds of years ago, these monks had to live together. And I don’t know about you but living with a bunch of dudes who have taken a certain set of vows would probably, be challenging. And so they found that this was a tool that allowed them to get along authentically and happily. It was lost, it was obscure for a lot of years for centuries and got refound in the 19th century and really brought to life by some folks who are still doing it today as a sorter of personalities but less that and more of an understanding and a roadmap of who we are.

Ashley: How does this compare to the DISC profile or other personality tasks that are out there?

Nick: Thank you so much for that question because it’s one I’m passionate about. I did all of those things but I was specifically, a Myers Briggs guy for a long time. And man, I still, I would never fault anybody for finding value in it, it’s incredibly valuable. I think where it’s valuable is at a certain point on our path and our journey and what I know about a lot of people but what I know specifically, about this community is that, you guys are really about self-improvement, really about growing and not just staying stagnant. And I think if you’re one of those kinds of people and you want to grow and it’s essential to you that you grow the Myers Briggs is on that line at a place where maybe if you don’t understand what it is about you that makes you different. I think the Myers Briggs can tell you really loudly and really accurately. I’m an ENFP, I’m emotional, I’m intuitive, I’m a thinker, I’m a perceiver and I do thinking before I do judging and I’m an extrovert more than I’m an introvert. And so you can start to really understand who you are. But as you hear me say all that, you also hear me putting these boxes around things. You’re hearing me say, “You’re an introvert and not an extrovert, you’re this, you’re not that.” And I think there’s a containment that happens there that’s really good for letting us understand our tendencies and our behaviors. The enneagram speaks to our emotional habits, that’s my favorite phrase where we go emotionally. We’re really, if we’re paying attention, usually pretty good at knowing our habits but not our emotional habits. Where do we land emotionally just out of habit? And the enneagram also speaks to our priorities, our driving emotions and then it’s through that. It says, “Well, because you tend to operate more out of fear than anger for instance, you tend to go this way,” but the enneagram allows you to say, I’m this kind of ENFP. It’s about you, the individual so you can put those things together, I’m a Myers Briggs ENFP but I’m an enneagram seven and that’s the kind of ENFP I am. And it’s more about who you are and less about what you do.

Tony: Just from my own personal knowledge, what are you on the Myers Briggs?

Nick: An ENFP.

Tony: Yeah. [crosstalk 00:06:53]. Got you. What about you, Ashley?

Nick: [crosstalk 00:06:56].

Ashley: I have no idea.

Tony: Oh, you’ve never taken it before?

Ashley: I’ve never taken it. No, I’ve done the DISC profile but I’ve never taken the Myers Briggs.

Tony: Okay. What are you on the DISC profile?

Ashley: I don’t even remember.

Nick: I don’t know anymore either.

Ashley: [crosstalk 00:07:03].

Tony: Ashley, you’re no hope. So on the Myers-

Ashley: Okay. I’m going to look it up real quick.

Tony: … yeah. We’ve got to get… I think it’ll be cool to have this as part of the conversation too but on Myers Briggs, I’m an INTJ. I don’t really remember what all those letters stand for but it’s like the engineer or the scientist or something like that is what they call it. On the DISC profile, I know I’m a really high C and then lower on the D and the I. So you see some similarities when you look at some of these different personality tests and I do see a lot of the same character traits in the enneagram as I saw in my examples of the Myers Briggs or the DISC profile. But what I want to dig into Nick, and maybe if we can set the table for the listeners here is, the Myers Briggs talks, are you intuitive versus judging versus this versus that. The DISC is decisive and cautious and I can’t remember what the other ones are. What are the different, I don’t know… I guess, categories of the enneagram that people’s personalities and motivations et cetera, fall into?

Nick: Yeah. Thanks for the question. I think it’s really fundamentally the difference, is you’re talking about these in both those systems in the Myers Briggs and the DISC and others that are out there, that it is about, “Do you lean this way or do you lean that way? Are you more of a follower or more of a leader?” And certainly, those things are endemic to the nine different types of the enneagram. And again, enneagram is, ennea is the nine part if you’re into Latin, I’m not. But there are nine personality types and less personality types and I use that phrase to try to relate to the Myers Briggs and stuff but it’s really about these archetypes of certain types of humans. And those kinds of, again, motivational, what motivates you and where your emotional habits are. So as an example, I’m a seven and sevens are motivated… So we are part of the fear triad. So you’re either motivated by fear or anger or your heart and as part of the fear triad, I tend to be an anxious person, I don’t tend to be an angry person. In fact, I struggle in situations where I should be angry, actually, accessing it and doing that but I’m always anxious. Now, a seven is going to deal with that by immediately reframing it, finding a silver lining in, “Life’s good, life’s happy, we’re always positive and optimistic.” And from the outside, we tend to just look that way whereas someone right next to me, who’s an eight, so right near me on the enneagram is anger based. And so when things come in their life that are challenging, they fight it, they get their shield, they get their sword and they’re got to go fight that thing. So it’s really about that motivation. So you think about what I just said and the complexity of it and how you would parse that out into those little categories of ENFP or those other things in DISC. How would you do that? We’re talking about fundamental driving emotions in you. Where does that land in Myers Briggs, where does that land in DISC? And I think they can be complimentary but that’s the fundamental difference, I think.

Ashley: Just before we move on real quick, I did take a minute to look this up. According to the Tony Robbins DISC profile as assessment, not to be confused with Tony Robinson DISC profile assessment, I am a high, I.

Nick: Makes sense.

Tony: I think that’s what I liked about the enneagram too Nick, is that, like you said, the Myers Briggs or the DISC, it talks a lot about how you act but the enneagram was more so, “Hey, here’s why you act that way,” which I think is a little bit more instructive because if you understand your own motivations, I think it allows you to do a better job of being more self aware and controlling those weaknesses in your personalities a little bit better. I don’t know. Are there other benefits to the enneagram that I’m missing? Or would you say that’s the real big thing that’s the driver there?

Nick: Yeah. I think you nailed the center of it but I think the piece that we maybe aren’t talking about as much here that I think especially, to your audience is a big deal, is how that involves itself when you start interacting with other people whether that’s personal or professional, man or man. To me, the most liberating part of it is that ability to fully authentically, understand others. What are we always told? That the most empathetic thing you can do is put yourself in someone else’s shoes, you put yourself in their shoes and we do that of out of great goodwill if we’re being good people, we try. Well, if you do that, you’re just putting yourself in their shoes so all of your biases, all your life experience, all of your emotional habits and then you go put yourself in their shoes and say, “Well, okay, I understand why they,” no, you don’t. You understand how you would be in that situation and the enneagram lets you actually, understand them in their shoes. And I think one of those things especially, in business partnerships where things can be really maybe a little less emotionally open, hopefully not but sometimes. Sometimes things can feel like, “Well, if I said that, if I did that, it would be because I was really mad, it would be because I didn’t give a crap, it would be because of these,” but maybe if you understand this person’s type structure, you understand that’s not at all what they’re doing, their motivations are just different than yours. You’re a visionary, they’re a detailed person so when they start pointing out the details that are going to fall apart, they’re not picking apart your dream. They’re trying to help you understand, here’s some stuff that might go wrong. That kind of stuff so I think the other value is in teams and in relationships, both business and professional.

Ashley: So we talked about how it’s important to be conscious of yourself from learning about your habits and what type of person you are so you can be more conscious of your habits and how you interact with people. But you touched a little bit about relationships and talking with other people whether on their team. So do you ask people to go get this testing done or do you memorize all these types and then try and figure out what type they are? How do you best approach that as to figuring out what someone’s type is so that you can interact with them appropriately?

Nick: Man, what a great question. One of the cardinal sins for people in what I do is that you never type somebody, you should never ever say, “Oh, you’re an eight and I know that so da, da, da,” because that’s just much putting somebody in a box as anything. But there can be a level of awareness and so ideally, yeah, Ashley. You would if you were on a team, I think it’d be incredibly valuable to get everybody to go at least do a tertiary top level view and get some notion of what type structure they might be and share that if you’re on a team that I promise you, the payoff for that is going to be way higher just for a day or an hour of reading. What you’ll see come out of that on a team, I think would be more than you could possibly imagine. That said, as you go through your life you can’t just encounter each person and be like, “Here’s a test. I need you to take this.” But if you spend some time in it even if you’re just spend time on you and your type structure, we are all in various ways, we’re all the enneagram numbers. You can’t be completely divorced from any part of it in the end, the enneagram is the whole human experience. And so you start to get a sense if you meet somebody who, man, it just feels like every time you bring something up, they just want to fight you and it seems like they like fighting you and not just you, everybody. They just always want to fight. And those kind of people you can think, “Man, what a jerk,” probably, someone who’s an eight you don’t know. But from that, you can really start understanding the reason they’re that way is because they really care. Eights deep at their core, are the most soft jelly loving people and but they’re super sensitive and their way of dealing with that and making sure that everybody that they care about whether it’s on a work team or a family, they’re going to go fight. And so if you can see it for what it is then you’ll see it for that as opposed to “Man, what a jerk,” you’ll see them fighting for a thing they care about. And so to that end if you can start to get that sense, you can start actually, understanding people who aren’t like you.

Ashley: So it is important to not only understand your own type but to have an understanding of the other types so that you can look at somebody and say, “They may be this type,” and that would be more beneficial than just memorizing what your type is and knowing that. But getting some knowledge and understanding of others is where you’re going to get the real benefit.

Nick: Yeah. I would say you can break it into two parts. I would also say I would move from memorizing to having a relationship with who you are because you really start to understand that person. And I think that’s part of the power of it as opposed to some of those other personality disorders where, “I’m an ENFP,” this is a relationship with yourself. So at that part and you can just do that and you’ll be a better person to everybody you encounter, you’ll be more successful in every one of your interactions and in the things you do. You just won’t have the filters and the silent voices you’re not aware of impacting that. And you could just do that and I think that’d be incredibly beneficial but, yeah. If you really want the max benefit of it, understanding the other types and understanding at least the types, the people who are really close in your life, just on that level, think that’s an amazing opportunity to really turn up the dial on, on what you’re capable of doing with others.

Tony: So Nick, not only did we bring you here to educate our listeners on the enneagram but you also spend some time with Ash and I separately, getting to know us a little bit and figuring out which of those nine numbers we fell into. And I don’t know about for you Ash, but almost it felt like a little bit like a therapy session. There was a lot of deep, very pointed questions.

Ashley: Yeah. That was the exact… I texted my friend right after I was like, “I think I just had a therapy session.”

Tony: So Nick, I think Ash and I would both love if we could share with the listeners what number of category we fell into and then just have a discussion around what exactly that number entails and just have a fluid discussion around it.

Nick: Sure. And just to kick it off, that typing interview is so different than the work you would do once you’re typed. And I totally, it’s like I said it to both of you, it’s like a police, you’ve got the light on you and it’s like an interrogation and it’s intense. So thank you both for doing that with me. I really appreciate it.

Ashley: Well, the questions are hard. You really have to think about yourself.

Nick: Yeah. So thanks for doing that. I appreciate you taking the time and being so open. I think what we landed on for both of you which is really interesting to me is an enneagram type structure of six. Ashley, there was a little bit more ambiguity with because you have a lot of that seven energy. I’m a seven so it takes one to know one. And I think what’s interesting about that though and I was hypothesizing with both of you if I wonder if in communities of people like this, who are driven to make their lives better and to find security that you’re going to encounter more sixes, I don’t know. And here’s why, sixes as a type structure, their habit of my is doubt. Doubt about, and again, we go back to this is your root level. We all work to become better and not let these things own us but sixes, tend to find themselves doubting things and then trying to find a way to have faith in those things. So sixes also can have the most faith out of any type structure depending on where they are. And their driving emotion is, as I mentioned earlier, fear. So doubt and fear and you’re starting to hear these words. I’m going to time out for one second and tell you another thing I love about the enneagram. It really doesn’t pat you on the back, it doesn’t say you’re amazing because it pretty much comes in and says, “Here’s what’s probably, a challenge for you.” And the fun part of working on your type structure is reducing the impact of that but, yeah. As I continue to talk to you here in front of all your listeners, I’m probably, going to tell the things that don’t sound like rah, rah and that’s just the nature of the enneagram. That’s just how it is. But your focus of attentions as a six is to find the hazards and so this is all the bad stuff but here’s the thing that makes sixes so fundamentally amazing is that they have an almost supernatural ability to do that, to find the hazards in the world, see them coming, get a plan together to either mitigate it or completely avoid it. And do that specifically, for their small circle of people, that’s often their family, their actual literal, family. But sixes also make families out of the people they want to but they do this as much or more for those people as they do for themselves. And if you see a six at work, really doing their thing, it’s supernatural. They can just see it all coming and plan and have it figured out before it gets there. So I felt a lot of that from both of you. And then after listening to some of your podcasts, it’s clear that you’re just doing that on a daily basis which is why I wonder if your audience is overrepresented with sixes but, yeah. I think both of you are there. If I can just pradal on a little longer Ashley, I think at the enneagram numbers, like I said, we’re connected to all of them but we’re connected to outside of our specific type structure for in stronger ways. So we have a number will slide to in stress or some people say dis integration and a number we slide to when we’re more calm, integration, some people say and then we have wings. So the wings are just, you’re going to lean to the right or the left. If you’re a six, you might lean five, if you’re six, you might lean seven. And I really feel Tony, you lean heavy to the five which is the engineer as you mentioned. My brother’s a five, he literally sends satellites into space. He owns a satellite company and then the sevens are me, just too much energy and I just make everybody uncomfortable. So it’s that energy of positivity and all that and Ashley really talked about looking to the future which is such a seven thing to do, is to have positive plans on the books to have a positive spin on things. If things start getting stressful, yes, sevens stress they’re ain’t anxious just like sixes but they go somewhere with that. It’s more positive, try to keep it optimistic and then fives are these thinkers and I don’t think either of you are a five or a seven but you definitely, lean that way. And I think what’s really interesting is how that shows up between the two of you.

Ashley: That’s why we make the best team as cohost.

Tony: So, Nick, I want to talk a little bit about some of the limitations or not limitations but some of the personality quirks that maybe make it a little bit more difficult for sixes because as I was reading, I think that was the part that jumped out to me. So we talked about some of the shrainings of being a six but what are some of the limitations and how can Ash and I mitigate some of those in our day to day lives?

Nick: Thank you. That’s a great question. What’s interesting about sixes is, the number I can think of, the type structure on the enneagram that is the most, their dichotomy, their strengths or their weaknesses and that’s so rarely the case. Sixes are hypervigilant, end of story. And that’s what makes them so amazing at preparing and making plans for their lives and seeing things through and doing that. You know what else it does is, it gets in their way, the anxiety, the thinking about all those things that can go wrong, it can lead to pessimism, it can lead to doubt. It can lead to these kinds of things which… And they can start to spin. So the thing that makes them amazing at being them is also the thing that holds them back and in relationships, including and especially, professional relationships can just slow down the train, can get stuck and mired in that space. And they also can get they’re concerned with loyalty and so they can find themselves in a distrusting place. And I think, boy, anytime you’re going to do something big in your life, If you’re going to start a new partnership with somebody, we all have hesitancy because it’s a big deal. But my goodness, if you are so wrapped up in the idea, “If I can trust this person, will they be loyal, dah, dah, dah,” that can hold you back from a lot of things. And those are some major challenges that sixes face and also there can occasionally, be a self-doubt piece that comes into that. If you ever are blindsided by something as a six, man or man, can that land like a, “How did I not see this coming? How did I not, I have this superpower?” And that can really be a lead to self-doubt as well. And I think the amazing thing about growth in the enneagram as opposed to growth through other tools is, you’re not addressing the fact that you’re too introverted or whatever, you’re addressing the fact that,”Man, here’s this big thing that I’m always focused on and how is that impacting the way I see everything.” And so getting out of that can be really powerful.

Ashley: What are some tools and resources that we can go to learn how to, we’re a type six but we want to be the best type six we can be?

Nick: Yeah. I sent you guys, hopefully you can post some links and things. To me, the authority where I’ve done the majority of my learning as the narrative in the enneagram, they’re the OGs, if you will, of the enneagram and they’re passionate, they keep updating not just their terminologies but their ways of thinking about it. You heard me say a couple times throughout this, “Oh, some people use this verbiage and some people use that.” They’re always really thinking about how, they’re never done and they don’t think they have it figured out. And I think that’s really amazing and I’ve done a lot of stuff there. So the narrativeenneagram.com, there’s two books that really kicked off my journey that change my life and that’s The Path Back to You and The Road Between Us or I might have gotten the path and the road inverted on that but it’s something about roads. And so The Road Back to You and The Path Between Us, it’s written by a couple of pastors which is just from that perspective they’re not at all… It’s not from the perspective of that faith but it is, it’s their life experience, it’s their learned experience. And so they share how it works in their world so those are great places to start. And then I really feel like there is so much you can do with reading and tests and things but there’s just really no replacement for talking to somebody. So obviously, me and people like me who can sit down and really work with you and your individual, your type structure and understanding it and then lessening its impact.

Ashley: Let me ask you this, so after you talked with us and we identified our type structure, did you come into this interview knowing or having a plan, how to interact with us based on our type structure? And what does that look like, what is the best way to interact with a six?

Nick: You know what’s interesting? That’s a great question, thank you. Yes and no, is the answer. Understanding type structures just automatically, as soon as you, if you’ve been in a while and you’ve invested in it, you understand a six and so I think just automatically, we’ll go back to the Myers Briggs here. My N, means I’m intuitive so you’re either intuitive or thinking. So once you have the understanding, I think you do on some level shift, the way you speak. I certainly, am not talking to you the way I talk to a one or a three but I don’t think it changes the underlying, it’s maybe just speaking a slightly different language. And I think for sixes, it’s letting maybe a little bit more of me out personally. Because sixes want to know they can trust you, sixes want to know that you’re a human being in this world with them. If I came in like a one and one specifically, are very detail oriented, they have a very loud inner critic and they look for everything that could be wrong and so different than sixes who look for things that could go wrong. And if I started doing that and bringing that energy, I think there’s a lot of, that would make you guys feel a little less comfortable. So I think it goes back to that thing we talked about, if you understand other types you can just be in their space with them in a way that’s a little more authentic.

Tony: Yeah. I’m thinking as you were talking, Nick and it’s like, I feel like I should really just do all of these with my wife and my son, my son’s 14 years. So I think he’s old enough to get the value out of this but how cool would that be if, as a family, we understand each other’s enneagrams, we understand each other’s Myers Briggs, their DISC profiles, man, what could that do to our relationships? So I’m just thinking out loud right now but man, what a cool… I don’t think families do that enough, understanding where the other person’s coming from.

Ashley: Yeah. I think you think of it more of like teams at your work-

Tony: Business.

Ashley: … business but not into your family.

Nick: Well, Tony, thank you. I mean, I know I’m here talking to this audience who has a specific interest and this is a little off that topic but boy, I think if I’m just going to be really blunt, that is the real mother load of value in the new game is what you just said. I mean, I didn’t mention it at the beginning, I was going to but the way I found it is I found myself very suddenly and very unexpectedly divorced and my life was just upended and that’s when the enneagram came into my life. And I’ll tell you the number one thing I kept thinking as I just started dipping my toes and then digging is, I’m like, “I would’ve had a different life if I’d have had the enneagram prior to,” I mean, if I could have gone back to my twenties, I would’ve had a completely different life and I mean better. And the people around me would’ve had a different life too and I think, at getting the people who are in your life personally on board as much as they’re interested, the dividends that would pay, I can’t even begin to tell you, I fully believe that’s my area of passion for sure.

Ashley: I see these and I don’t know much about this at all but like zodiac signs or your horoscope, things like that. I see things online where it’s like, “Oh, if you’re a Scorpio you match with an Aquarius,” I don’t even know if that’s another one, I just know I’m a Scorpio. And it’s like, you match well with that person in business wise or even relationship wise. Can you look at these types and there’s better people that you’ll work with or it doesn’t even matter at all? Because I saw in the one worksheet, there was the mind, the body and the heart and some of them were categorized. Can you go into that a little more too?

Nick: Yeah. Thanks. So one of the things I really love about the enneagram too is, because it’s treating us like people and not like computer programs that we can sort into different things, is that there’s the somatic piece. So you really brought that part up so our body part and that is where we tend to process everything in our lives. So the head types which is five, six and seven. We literally, take the entire world in, we process it and we do everything we do through our brains. And it rarely goes any lower and if it does, we’re not comfortable with it. I’m one, I totally get that. And then you move into just, which way we’re going to go? We’ll go eight, nine and one, those are the body type, the very bottom and that’s the anger type. It comes from their belly, it rages and someone like a nine, you bring that up to them you say, “Oh, you’re really anger driven.” And like, “No, I’m never angry,” that’s exactly it. They’re so good, their entire life is driven by not being angry. If there’s tumultuous situation, they’re the ones who can slip their feet into everybody’s shoes, make everything okay and move along. Because like, man, I just don’t want any anger but it’s still anger driven. And then there’s the heart types which I think all of us can intuitively understand, they live their life through their emotions and the things that make them feel warm or not so warm. And so what’s interesting is your question is, is there better mixed matches for business relationships or personal relationships? And I think on some level there is a natural tendency to find ourselves, a thinker and a doer and we know that’s true. That a lot of the strongest partnerships maybe the strongest partnerships ever. Apple, Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak, Jobs was clearly the thinker and Wozniak was clearly the doer and look what it did and so obviously, those are going to be two different types. I’m guessing, Jobs was something like a seven and I’m guessing, that Wozniak was something like a five. Now, I don’t know but you’re probably, going to find yourself drawn to that. But I would challenge the notion that in the end if you’re both healthy aware of your type structure, aware of each other’s type structures, that there isn’t a combination that wouldn’t work. And I think it’s about that commitment, that dedication to being the best blank you can be, being best six you can be. And I think from there, that’s where I love the enneagram is because we are all individuals and the enneagram allows for and encourages you to just be who you are. And you can be two totally different people and both be sixes so I hope that answers your question.

Ashley: Yeah. It does, thank you.

Tony: Well, one thing I want to comment on really quickly, Nick. You apologize for talking about the personal relationship aspect of the enneagram. But man, I think that’s super important even as all of us who are investing in real estate, those of you that are listening to this podcast and want to start investing in real estate, you’re doing so because you have this picture in your mind of what you want your life to be like. And for many of you there’s obviously, the financial part where you have this financial freedom, this financial security but I’m sure for everyone that’s listening, there’s also a relational part of that picture of your life as well. And it’s like, what good is building this big financial castle if you’re in there by yourself? And I think being able to really understand who you are as a person and how you work with other people is important. My wife and I, like I said, we haven’t done this yet but I definitely, want to make her do it now. I say, make her do it. I mean, ask her to do it because I’m sure, I can’t make my wife do anything.

Ashley: [crosstalk 00:33:45] we already know who wears the pants in that household.

Tony: Yeah. If you guys know my wife, I can’t make her do anything but we read a book in our mid twenties, maybe you know it. It’s called The Five Love Languages and that book was super helpful for us as a couple because it gave us a better understanding of who the other person was. And we still literally, use the language that we picked up in that book today about how we interact with each other. So this is me more so just giving advice to everyone based on what’s worked for me is, if you can understand your partner, your romantic partner, your parent, your friend, whoever it is in a deeper way, it really does unlock a new level in that relationship.

Ashley: Tony, I think that book even applies to business relationships too. I’m going to a real estate investor’s wedding and there’s a whole group text going of, “His love language is gift giving, we have to do something awesome for him.” And everybody’s week is consumed, trying to figure out what gift to give him so I think it’s a way to show appreciation too, if you do go along with what somebody’s love language is too and not just in personal relationships.

Nick: If I can piggyback off of that, man, if you are seeing the… And by the way I was a love languages guy too. When I say that I’ve been into all these things, I’ve been into all these things. You guys are talking about, the love languages I dig it and I think you’re seeing the value of just these five little, “Oh, gift giver,” or “Words of affirmation.” And you see the value in knowing that being conscious of it and then, like you said, are you approaching your wife differently, Tony? Not consciously, but you know. So just on a moment to moment basis, you are. You’re not thinking, “Oh, gift giving,” or whatever your wife’s is, it’s just there and you just know and so you’re a better person to your wife. And if you could expand that infinitely, I mean, orders of magnitude, that’s just what the enneagram is but on a super richer, deeper level. And if you could understand your wife as a four my goodness, all the little details, all the nuances, all the minutia, you’d be so prepared to understand those things. And one other thing I just want to add is you were talking about you guys are driven to build these castles because you have this picture of a life you want to get to. And in working with driven people like you guys, one of the things I most frequently work on is how do you do the love part and the life part while you’re on that train? Because you can work so hard and it’s for these people that you love. It’s not because you’re selfish or you’re ignoring them but man, it can be possible to easily do that. And so some of the work is an understanding on the journey before you get to that vision, how do we keep life working right now in a really positive, fulfilling way? So that’s one of the things that the enneagram’s great at.

Tony: Man, Nick, this is where the therapy session kicks in because what you’re saying is something that I struggle with, honestly. I stopped working my W-2 job back in 2020 but I still do find myself working a lot but the motivation is different now before is because, “I wanted to keep my job, I wanted the next promotion, I wanted a raise.” Now, it’s like, “Shit, if I’m not working then who knows what’s going to happen to my business?” And there’s this insatiable desire to keep growing because in that growth, I feel a sense of security. But also the reason why I don’t ever want to go back to a day job is because I want that freedom and that flexibility of time. So I have that choice but a lot of days I’m choosing to really invest it into the business. And what makes it even more difficult is that I know my wife and my son, their love language is quality time. So I have to be very cognizant of this drive that I have and making sure that I’m keeping it in check so that I’m not driven to the point that it decimate my relationships with the people that I love the most. So man, it’s a really deep conversation but one that I’m glad that we’re having.

Nick: Well, and I just want to point out just for anybody who’s being introduced to this right now, whatever 20 minutes ago, I said, “Well, what is sixes, what’s their emotional habit, what’s their focus of attention?” It’s security in an unsafe world and it’s planning and all the doubt and the da da. And man, as you’re talking there, I’m like, “Geez, are you just selling the six thing on purpose?” Is it like, “I want to make it clear I’m a six,” because you really just said all those things. And the power in that and what’s fun about how accurate that is man, can then you address it so specifically, can you look at dead in the eye and start mitigating its impact? Whereas what are you going to do with the ENFP or INTJ, like you said you were? How do you take that as a tool and be like, “I’m going to be better.” But boy, would it be easy for you to look at the exact things you just said and know that’s a habit and know that if you were doing any other job in any other place in the world, you’d still be struggling with that exact thing. And that I think it’s liberating because it’s like, “Well, I’m not a slave to it and it’s also empowering,” because you’re like, “Now, I know what it is, I can go get it.” And then folks who are driven like that, aren’t okay with it just sitting there. Once, you know what it is, you’re going to want to go tackle it. I just think it’s so [inaudible 00:39:11], I love it.

Tony: Yeah.

Ashley: And the fact that you’re very conscious of what your family needs from you that instead of, “Well, I’m working to make us tons of money so you can go and buy whatever you want,” where that doesn’t matter to them, where you’re finding that balance of spending quality time with them and being conscious of that, I think it’s just a huge thing.

Nick: That’s also another big six thing, right? It’s always, like I said at the beginning, it’s less about them and more about the people they love, every time.

Ashley: That’s funny. And I feel like you use the wrong words for me to bring this up because I feel like it’s on the wrong message. But when you care about somebody, like I took on a new business partner and the excitement and just him getting to quit his job was more of a motivator for me than me being like, “Oh, I can make this much money in this month.” I worked so much harder, I felt like because I wanted to say to him, “I told you could quit your job.” But how you just said that people, you care about your friends, your family, people, that means something to you is a huge motivator and you care about that more. I definitely, identify with that as a six.

Nick: Man, it goes back to that six thing of it’s often and most often their actual family but like I said, at the very beginning of this, boy, sixes like to make their own families too. Like, “Yeah. You’re my family now.” And I’m guessing, I don’t know but I’m guessing, whoever this business partner you have now isn’t just a smart business person, a hard worker, probably, are all those things. But I’m guessing, you were excited because, “That’s my family,” you’ve chosen this person to be someone in your circle as opposed to just, “Here’s a business opportunity,” I’m guessing.

Ashley: Yeah. And even Tony has brought me into his family too if you look at his text messages, I am pinned at the top of the very select few, the inner circle of family.

Nick: I mean, we’re sitting with a couples section here, it looks like.

Tony: Nick, you shared so many good things and I really hope everyone that’s listening takes the time to go out and complete an enneagram for themselves so they can get a better understanding of their own personality type. But I don’t know, Nick, is there anything else we should know about the enneagram, how it’s useful before we wrap things up here?

Nick: I would just throw out the 80/20 principle has never been more true of anything in the world. You’re going to get 80% of the value by just putting 20% into this thing. And you’ll just be blown away. Now, my guess is that once you get that, you’ll think, “Holy cow, what else can I do with this?” And if so pursue, do it like you do with anything that’s a tool in your life. But I promise you have my word that if you just do it a tertiary top level thing with this, you’ll already start seeing just amazing payoffs in your life.

Ashley: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Nick. Can you tell everyone where they can reach out to you or find out some more information?

Nick: Sure. The best way is just NB, I’m Nick Baumgart so nbenneagram.com. There’s a few resources there but mostly it’s just a way to get ahold of me. And then again, I would just lead everybody as much as I could to The Narrative Enneagram to me, they’re just the authority out in the world. It’s where I’ve learned almost everything I know. And then one last little thing, there are tests and I think the best one is that The Narrative Enneagram, you have to pay them 10 bucks. But I would just say, because I mentioned that we’re all connected to all the numbers and we have these wings and we have these lines that we move to, taking a test it can start to feel a little bit like astrology, “Every single one of these numbers sounds like me.” And because to some degree that it is. So if you do take a test, I would say, make sure that you read and there’s going to be one that really nails you and not in a good way. You’re going to feel like someone called you out in your crap and you’re not going to like it that’s probably, your actual type structure. But there’s really no replacement for having the ability to have someone go through a typing interview with you whether that’s me or not and being able to get the subtleties and the conversation that you guys talked about, the therapy session to really get in there. So by all means, take a test but keep going.

Ashley: Yeah, Nick, I have to say talking to you was so much better. And like Tony said, a therapy session where for me to sit down and take a test I would just rush through it to get it over with. And it probably, wouldn’t even end up being accurate because I would just want to get it done and over with it, click through everything [crosstalk 00:43:32].

Nick: Or answer the way you wanted [crosstalk 00:43:34].

Ashley: Yeah. So I think it was a lot more intentional doing it face to face or Zoom to Zoom and getting to talk with you. So thank you for taking the time to do that with both of us.

Nick: Yeah. Thank you. That was great.

Ashley: I’m Ashley @wealthfromrentals and he’s Tony @tonyjrobinson on Instagram. And thank you guys so much for joining us, we will be back on Wednesday with another guest. We’ll see you next time and remember sixes rules and others drool.

Nick: I love it.

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